Inside the Mind of a CIO: Moz Afzal’s Investment Journey

Welcome to Beyond the Benchmark, the EFG podcast with Moz Afzal.

Ben Woodford:

Hello everyone. Very warm. Welcome to you all. I'm Ben Woodford, Senior Director at Camarco a financial communications consultancy based in London. And today we're going to do things a little bit differently because the tables have turned as your usual host. Moz Afzal, is actually going to be in the hot seat, giving us insight into his career to date and his role at EFG. Moz has recently been named CIO of the Year at the 2025 Wealth Briefing European Awards, a testament to his leadership, vision and resilience in the world of asset management. Over the course of his 30 year career from junior analyst at HM Treasury to Global CIO, managing 25 billion of assets under management, he has demonstrated an ability to navigate complex global markets and foster a culture of growth and innovation while monitoring and inspiring young asset managers. So Moz, welcome and congratulations on winning the Wealth Briefing CIO of the Year award. Why don't we start at the beginning? Can you share your journey from a junior analyst at HM Treasury to becoming the Global Chief Investment officer at the EFG?

Moz Afzal:

Well first of all, thank you for having me on my own podcast, so very glad to be here. A bit of a shock when you came up with this idea, Ben, to interview me. So if I sound a little flustered, more than normal, you can understand why. So yes, been with EFG for 30 years. I think when I started at EFG, it was a subsidiary just in the UK primarily, and myself and my boss at the time we were running $10 million. That's why I can remember when we first started. As you say now, it's 25 billion. If I include investment solutions, which also includes our advisory businesses, then the overall investment solutions assets are actually currently around 73 billion US dollars. So being obviously very proud over the last 30 years to see that growth and very different job to what I was doing 30 years ago.

Ben Woodford:

Yeah, you've mentioned those kinds of changes and obviously it's been a varied career path. You must have faced a number of challenges and obstacles along the way. What are some of those key challenges you faced particularly earlier in your career and how did you overcome them?

Moz Afzal:

So I think certainly very early on early I just knew I wanted to be in investments and I think that's really important for anyone who's starting off. And I would say just insane curiosity to just find stuff out. So that would either be understanding markets or understanding a business or understanding how different things work. And so my curiosity certainly even today I would say is kind of insatiable. You could just throw things at me, I'll just be trying to understand it, figure out and so forth. So I think the earliest part or the biggest challenge certainly in the earlier parts of the career is just knowledge, information and how do you get it. And so trying to get yourself out there, going to different conferences, going out to see different fund managers and how they operate or analysts or reading. And certainly in the early years we didn't have YouTube or Spotify or any of those sort of facilities that we have today. You just had to go out and meet people. It was just simple as that. And I think one of the things that I would encourage, particularly in the world we live in today where we do a lot of work from home and working from your desks, whether that's in your little study or your little kitchen table to an office is just get out there and meet people. That's the only way that if you are thinking about current investments, scratch that itch if you like that just get out and meet people and travel and all those sort of things. And so the hardest thing for me in the early stages was trying to sort of get out there. I would say.

Ben Woodford:

Well when you look back, what's something you wish you knew at the start of your career?

Moz Afzal:

Oh gosh, how hard it is. It's a lot of hard work and I think it's not everybody's able to do it, it is just constantly just working. You never switch off. So you might be taking time off on a holiday and as I saw last August, I was on a holiday in Turkey and the Nikkei decided it wanted to fall 10 or 15% in a single day. And then suddenly you're on calls and you are thinking about what our next move should be or how do we communicate to clients about what's happened and so forth. So unfortunately you just never switch off. And if someone told me that maybe, I don’t know, I probably wouldn't have been involved in investments. I think given the type of person I am, I suspect I probably still would've voted for it. But I think not ever being able to switch off is probably the thing I probably would've been good if I'd known that at the beginning.

Ben Woodford:

Yeah, absolutely. So as your career has progressed, you've obviously assumed a number of important leadership roles. What does good leadership mean for you?

Moz Afzal:

Leading from the front. So that means that not that you always have to be the best investor, but you have to be well-informed, you can challenge your colleagues, whatever the investment may be. And as a CIO, it could be anything from diverse to credit spreads in China to growth equities in the US and everything in between. So your knowledge has got to be strong enough to be able to challenge your investment teams because you’re challenged by clients who are asking the same questions often of you. So the key thing is it's a lead from the front. You just got to be involved, you've got to be interested, you've got to be switched on and good investment talent hopefully when you are attracting talent. Those are the sort of things they're expecting their leadership to be able to do in an investment role.

The second thing is obviously integrity. You've got to have strong integrity if you're going to be successful, particularly in this type of role and honesty and sometimes guess what, you are going to make the wrong call about an investment and to be able to put your hand up and say, yeah, we got that wrong. And then be able to say, okay, we got that wrong, but this is what we're going to do to get out of the position and here's a better opportunity. And explaining to clients, I don't think clients expect you to be right on everything. And I think sometimes leadership makes a mistake of not being able to say, yeah, we got it wrong and this is what we need to correct. And one things we did very early on, 15 or 16 years ago is these kind of 10 predictions we do as a CIO office and we don't expect to be right on every single thing, but it just enables you to get into that discipline to be able to say, okay, if I'm going to get it wrong, these are the reasons why and how do you course correct? And I think that is probably certainly the key thing lead from the front.

Last thing I'd probably say is looking for that spark we find interviewing, I'm usually the last person to interview somebody, certainly on the investment teams, I would say I've probably interviewed most of them over the years. I'm looking for that spark now. That kind of insane curiosity that just keeps people going to find out facts to dig deeper, to figure things out. And I think that spark and also I would say the EFG way, the EFG way in our elevator pitch, we have this slogan called empowering entrepreneurial minds. And I really strongly believe in that respect to just the EFG'S values but also my own values in that you have this sort of, if you are a true entrepreneur, you always have this insane curiosity that you'll then go out and find the answer, whatever that or the next best investment opportunity. And I think that really symbolises both EFG and the way I think as well.

Ben Woodford:

Well you've certainly done something right most because under your leadership EFG asset management has grown significantly. I mean, what do you put this down to?

Moz Afzal:

Listening to clients, I think that's quite important and listening to their challenges they have in their own businesses or their own lives and hopefully our job is to provide solutions for them, whatever those solutions will be. And I think that's pretty important, just listening to clients, finding the right solutions. And we're having a little bit of a chat with our marketing team a little bit earlier. Our job is we're engineers and our job is to find those solutions that satisfy those client needs and just understanding that clients come first, understanding that obviously financial markets are going to go up and down the cyclical businesses, so long-term they trend, which is great, otherwise we probably wouldn't be in our business the long-term they trend. But just being able to sort of understand the client need and then marry that with those trends and make sure that you can deliver to their expectations.

Ben Woodford:

Of course, good leadership is particularly important during periods of uncertainty and upheaval. You've guided EFG now through several economic cycles. I mean, what lessons have you learned from these experiences?

Moz Afzal:

Nothing should surprise you. I think it's probably the first thing is that there is always a two or three standard deviation event around the corner. That's probably the one thing that you going to be open-minded and be able to say, look, stuff can happen, things can happen in financial markets, politics can happen. So I think that's quite important. I think the other important thing is to just talk to people who have different perspectives to the perspectives you have. I know my strengths and weaknesses as a fund manager or an investment manager and as a person, anyone who knows me, I'm the ever optimist. So then what you try to do then surround people around you and not necessarily like you. In fact, it'll be dangerous to have more people like me. So you want say people like Dan Murray, who's my Deputy CIO, who's a very different character to me, very analytical, very thoughtful, probably not as big a risk taker as I am.

So you're surrounding talent, very talented people around you who just have a different perspective as the perspective you have. Then you talk to a lot of people, I've been lucky enough over the 30 years to build an amazing network of individuals all around the world who I can pick up the phone, speak to and understand their perspective and their rationales to why they may think markets go up or down or the economic conditions or bad or even good. And then do come up to your own sort of judgments from your internal people who again you've selected, are very talented, very smart individuals with external advice and then just marry those views together and that typically gets through those cycles.

Ben Woodford:

Given you've said you've got an optimistic mindset and when we're in a period of real upheaval, geopolitically, economically as we are at the moment, do you also say that there are opportunities available from an investing point of view as well?

Moz Afzal:

Well I think that's the key point. If you're an optimist in any upheaval or any difficult period, there's always an opportunity you can take advantage of. And I think that's our job obviously to look out for risks and hopefully if we are ahead of the game and we look out for the risks, we can course correct ahead of that time. But also when there's the hardest times or when there's rubble everywhere, there's always that sort of green shoot that comes out of that rubble and you really want to identify that and be on top of it. And I think the optimist will always look for the green shoots in that rubble. And I think that's a really important point because most people when they see rubble usually are running away and often that's a bad thing to do. And very famous people like Warren Buffett and others have always said, you want to be kind of contrarian. So there is a bit of contrarian streak to me or my thinking. So I'm always looking for that green shoot during the rubble and often the best investments we've made over the last 30 years have always been those types.

Ben Woodford:

Yeah, there's a bit of a loaded question, but when times are really challenging like they are, do you actually enjoy the responsibility and challenges of managing a global investment portfolio?

Moz Afzal:

Yeah, well it's a very interesting question, philosophical question about me, but I guess there will be two things. I would say, first of all, probably some of the worst decisions I've made in my career in terms of investments decisions that usually when I'm probably bored and there's no crisis because complacency tends to develop and you're kind, everything's fine, I can go on that holiday and take a little bit more easier. I mean mental holiday, not a physical holiday. So I think complacency for me is my worst enemy, but I love crisis. I unfortunately live for them and there's always a crisis somewhere. It could be in a particular market or it could be the global economy or it could be a sector or it could be something else. And those sort of things I think is probably where I excel most in terms of figuring why the industry or why the sector or why the global economies in the mess it's in, how do you communicate that, how then you find out the two or three important things that will turn things around and then be able to articulate that and guide the investment teams and our clients to that opportunity.

So I would say that over the years, my best work has actually been during crisis and sometimes the best decision is to do nothing. And I think sometimes that's the hardest thing to do because most individuals, investors, sometimes the assessment is to do nothing. And there's always that sort of innate thing, I've got to do something because that was how things will improve and sometimes that's the worst decision.

Ben Woodford:

Yeah. Just turning now to your own investment philosophy and approach, were there any kind of role models or people that you've looked up to that have influenced your investment approach over the years?

Moz Azal:

So I think always the standard ones, Warren Buffett, I always encourage my children, for example, to go and watch his videos or read his books or read his interviews because I think what's quite good is not just the investment acumen, but just the way of life is also humble beginnings always go back to your roots. Those sort of things for me as an investor are very interesting in terms of real life things. When I was at the Treasury, I happened to be there when George Soros broke the Bank of England, if you recall in that the early to mid nineties. That was really quite interesting because I was on the other side and I could just see how much damage speculators investors can inflict on governments. And that's a really good case study to understand that. So very quickly I picked up the alchemy of finance, which is George Soros' book, and he had this concept of reflexivity, which essentially is staying one step ahead. So for every action, there's maybe two other actions that could happen that could alter the course of that financial asset.

And I think that to me was really good learnings and essentially one could also think of in terms of game theory. So my first degree was in maths, and so I always go back to my, particularly in this Trump time, we got a lot of uncertainty. You just don’t know what he's going to say next. And so what you try to do is you use game theory to try and figure out what is the reaction to the action that Trump will make and that's where the investment opportunity or risk lies. And I think that is really important and that really came from those early learnings of myself. And then for bit of fun, the Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, which was actually written in the 1920s. Many sort of proverbs, if you call investing proverbs that come out of that book are very relevant today about essentially around crowds and how crowds get behind or crash behind any investment opportunity.

Ben Woodford:

I know one thing that you feel very passionately about is the importance of mentoring and helping people with their career development. I mean, how'd you go about identifying and nurturing emerging talent within the organisation?

Moz Azal:

So first thing you've got to do is just again, listen to your employees and also think about their own psychology, be it investing psychology or how they are as individuals because I think what you can't do is put a round peg in a square hole. And I think often managers have a view of this is what's right for their colleague. And sometimes it's not like you. So you've got to really understand what drives them, what makes 'em tick, what outlook on life they have, and then start there. And then you start to build a programme that fulfills their full potential. So I'll give you an example. Not everyone can be a successful fund manager, but you could be a really successful analyst and an understanding, for example, in a real world, that distinction is quite important because if you try to make an investment analyst into a fund manager usually doesn't end well.

And likewise, if an investment analyst is really wants to be a fund manager, you kind of help them guide them through it. And that's everything from not just investing but also marketing. How do you portray yourself? Because you can be the most successful fund manager with zero assets. So typically a successful fund manager is they're quite outgoing, they're a good communicator, they're self aware, all their strengths and weaknesses. So when you're mentoring someone, you're trying to build their career journey and then be able to make sure that they can fulfil their own potential, not just what or your organisation's potential. In the end, it's a team, a good striker won't be a good goalkeeper. And that's the analogy I try to draw. And then you build a plan for them. And obviously what you are trying to do is build a team with strengths and strengths across all the bench.

Ben Woodford:

What's the kind of best piece of advice then that you've ever received during your career?

Moz Afzal:

Wow, okay, that's probably a little bit more harder to think about. I think the best was exactly that. Just know your strengths and weaknesses and be open about them because often people know you well, they'll know your strengths and weaknesses. And so if you know them then you can actually work on them, work on your weaknesses and often figure out how you will improve them. And then sometimes you just can't change that, then you need to, if you're in a leadership role, you surround people around you who are brilliant at something that you are not good at and being humble enough to realise that you're not going to be the best at everything.

Ben Woodford:

Turning now to the non-work, Moz, you mentioned earlier that you can never be completely relaxed, but when you get the opportunity to relax, how do you like to do that?

Moz Afzal:

Wow, okay. So actually watching rubbish TV because anything, you don't want anything too serious, I mean some of these sort of crazy things like Netflix is great and I really enjoy series that come along. I have a golden rule when I'm on an aeroplane, I only watch comedies so nothing is too serious when you're on a plane. So I'll watch. So when I'm relaxing, it'll just to really vegetate really switch off, not take anything too seriously because pretty much everything you do is serious. And actually then just spending time in the garden, contemplating thinking about stuff, spending time with family. I know everybody says that, but generally just switching the phone off and just listening to them is helps you to relax. And I would say probably one last thing, you always need that moment to yourself and I would encourage everybody to have their zen moment. And for me, believe it or not, it's sitting in my garden with a cup of coffee and just staring into space for half an hour. And I think that's a pretty good thing to do.

Ben Woodford:

I also understand you're a very keen paddle and cricket player. I mean, do you take any lessons from the court that you are into your approach to investment?

Moz Afzal:

Yeah, I would say more for the cricket. Cricket, certainly test matches are all about strategy and how to prize out that player, looking at their strengths and weaknesses. So there's a lot of strategy within, I guess a longer form of cricket and also in the shorter term of shorter form of cricket. So I do use a lot of thought around cricket and the same with tennis or paddle or any of those types of sports. I do watch a lot of sports. So the other thing going back to relaxing, so Formula One I love as well. Again, it's all about the strategy and the race is won really at the factory. And how that then is executed through one driver is actually fascinating and interesting to me. I've only really been into Formula One and say the last 5 or 10 years, so I just pick up sports all the time and they just try to think about how that might reflect on how we run our company and how we invest.

Because there's always lessons you can learn through sports, be it teamwork is the obvious one, but using strategy within that. And I said Formula One, I just really found really interesting, just like investments, everything's done at the factory, it's done at the coalface in terms of quant analytics or wherever it might be analytics. And then you're using that to build portfolios and enhance your research. And that I think is something I've found more recently I found really interesting and how to then use that. Think of the Formula One driver just being the fund manager, but everything that goes behind it that makes them successful. And I think that to me is really maybe something new that I've picked up over the last 5 or 10 years. And then thinking about it in terms of our business.

Ben Woodford:

And just one final question. You've obviously achieved a great deal in your career, but do you have personal and professional goals for the next few years?

Moz Afzal:

Oh, absolutely. I'm not going to stop for another 25 years, I think. Look, we have AUM goals, performance goals, team goals. I mean all of those are super important. But yeah, now I'm quite goal orientated. I know what the next thing to do is and how we are going to reach to achieve that. And then also because we are in a cyclical business, you've got to also realise there's some areas that are not going to be the winners of the future. And so being able to start thinking about that and then course correcting your business to the future is also quite important. Our business is very much around contra decisions. And what do I mean by that? That means the best opportunities come from the areas that have not done well over the last 5 years or 10 years, be it a sector or a technology or an asset loss. And so we should be investing on a contra cyclical basis. So really investing in things that have not done well, but we think we'll do well in the future. And so yeah, some of the goals are around that. Some have AUM goals. I won't reveal what those AUM goals are, but I would much rather be running a business that's triple or quadruple the size in the 5 or 10 years would be a goal on how to achieve that.

Ben Woodford:

That's a great note to end on. So thank you very much most for that very insightful look at your career, your investment approach and the challenges and opportunities ahead. And of course, congratulations once again on being named CIO of the Year at the 2025 Wealth Briefing European Awards. Thank you.

Moz Afzal:

Ben. Thank you very much. It was very enjoyable. Thank you.

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